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Posted by: Big_Whisky

Posted on: Friday February 27 2004 4:51pm

Your Right Mr. Lucky Jim...your right. That still doesn't explain the Mac users though...

Now, I say the BEST drink to enjoy, either winning or losing, is WHISKY. Back at the FilmCon, after I succeeded in taking it to the Justins like the gaming dandies they are, (*ducking and covering*) I enjoyed a refreshing shot of WHISKY, and the crowd approved. (we had spectators) Then when I would receive the beat down, nothing picks the player up like a rejuvenating shot of WHISKY. So, you've got my vote. What say ye all?

D.R. aka Big_Whisky

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Friday February 27 2004 4:25pm

The problem with trying to get a sim based on how governments are now is it's always going to be "biased" as we really don't know the weights for actions in the real world. For instance, we have the general idea of the Laffer curve , but we really can't look at it and say "Ah-ha! At this point increasing taxes begins to bring in less revenue!"

Whiskey: Strangely, discussion boards are not good places to hold discussions. The biggest problem is the emotion in a post is going to be supplied by the reciever, not the sender. So while you may post something with a friendly tone in your mind, the person reading it could take it as you being an asshole. Put that with an emotional issue such as politics and you're asking for trouble. You also have the problem of being encouraged to make statements as opposed to asking questions. The socratic method is thrown out the window on the internet because it takes lots of time and patience and you want instant gratification in a conversation. Thus you get into this lecture mode and you are percieved, as Justin and I were, of being arogant.

So, for now, I suggest leaving politics alone on this board, getting DBBQC back, and talk about things that are really important, like what the best alcohol to ingest is when your team is getting spanked.

Posted by: Bigger_Whisky

Posted on: Friday February 27 2004 3:28pm

I'm Ranting...

Why can't people from the left, or Mac users hold a conversation without throwing personal insults? If we look back here on this BLOG, I think you will see that I said the following kinds of statements in our discussion:
1. Ways to HELP DBBQ with his issues.
2. Statements about the economy and how it works.
I never said anything personal or insulting at all, yet I am told to fuck off! Wow, that's fucking fantastic! Then I go to the FilmCon, and we merry three set up our PCs for some hot gaming action. Well, some Mac users close in, and we have a 'discussion' where we express our opinion about how we enjoy PCs more than Macs. Well, they get flustered, called our PCs (and I quote) 'garage built pieces of SHIT', then they run and crawl back into the hole they came from. We didn't really have anything bad to say about the Macs, accept the price. WHAT KIND OF A DEBATE IS THIS???
Come on people, what ever happened to a good old fashioned discussion? Can I have a debate with someone without having them call me a bigot, racist, piece of shit, heartless, or told to go 'fuck off'?

ARRRRGRGRGRGRGRGR!

My_Whisky_is_Bigger_Than_Yours

Posted by: Intrigue

Posted on: Friday February 27 2004 2:56pm

With all of this talk, o government and politics, and MOO. i thought to my microsim days of sim city and the sims, why not build a Government sim as close to what is out there now. Civ III doesnt cut it in my book. Building the engine would be good for BBQ an I. Who knows maybe justin and dave want to make some content?? for it. Crowscape, could provide alot of research for it? althought it might be hard for him to be unbiased. what do you guys think.

Posted by: Big_Whisky

Posted on: Friday February 27 2004 2:52pm

That was so nice he decided to post it twice...

Hey BOSAR!!! Got your message last night, if you want another venue to hold the event, we could make a deal that way. (aka host it at the home...my home) You say the word my friend...

If anyone is up for a laugh, (or a good, good cry...) go check out the Painkiller demo. (it's a new FPS) Bosar, especialy you it's strangely reminiscent of your favorite, BLOOD, without the charm of course... ;) plus it employs the HAVOC engine, so that means it's gotta be good! ;)

Other than that nothing on the ho-rizon. (but ho's of course!)

Later G's
Big_Whisky

Posted by: Intrigue

Posted on: Friday February 27 2004 1:56pm

Sorry about that last post being so long, i just wanted to inform you how i view the economy. After reading the rest of the forum, i feel that there are a couple of things to clear up.

First, I do pay a strong penalty for getting the most current tech crap on the market, I paid close to 3500$ for my fx51 machine and I Like it allot, but on the other hand a machine that is a generation behind could be built for a 1/3rd the cost. Aphex2 was less than 200$ to rebuild and it performs almost as well as the other machines on our network.

I am sorry that BBQ has given up, it seems, because he has some good points that i was not able to defend and offer some additional perspective.

The party system
Let me state LOUD AND CLEAR, I WISH THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS WOULD LEAVE US OUT OF THEIR SEARCH FOR POWER. I dream of a day when people vote on issues, and not political parties. I dream of a day when Americans are willing to pay for a better solution, then a better marketing team. Look at how much goes into producing a product like the modern movie, and then see how much is spend on marketing, about 1/3rd of money spend on a product in this country is spent on marketing, even more in some markets.

Alternate Fuels
I agree with BBQ on this subject, where did the hydrogen economy go, why didn’t it happen and is it going to happen on its own. Well matt to offer you some insight on the Hydrogen question is it possible. Shortly after GW's Hydrogen plan many analysts looked at the viability of a Hydrogen fuel source, the Fuel Cell. Wired devoted the April 2003 issue to the question of a Hydrogen economy. They put the estimated monetary investment to 100 billion, comparing it to going to the moon. The analysts that were working with Wired mag and felt that going to the moon in the 60’s was an equivocal goal in the 00’ to go to hydrogen. So they adjusted for inflation from the cost to fund the mission to the moon, and came up with the number 100 billion. Presidents GW’s proposed plan only put 1.2 billion on the table, not even enough to start an ad campaign. In my opinion we spent some 80-120 billion on a war with terror, I think that 100 billion is doable if we are willing to go to war on our cars. Wired calls for a 10 year plan and I am more than willing to let you look at it. I happen to think that it is a well formed plan and that it would work if enacted, but do you think that we would be able to get 100 billion in support, when some very large companies, might not like the war on gasoline. I would love America to hold the monopoly on fuel cell tech and jobs, to know that we are making a better earth, what a smile I would have on my face.

Health care
Matt, the issue here is not that we need standard healthcare, but that we need to take care of the health care industry. I was able to see how it works from the inside, where the money is moved around. The company that I worked for, was a billing company, they took 10% of the money that you payed towards your medical bills. And then there is the insurance industry, that must make a profit, they are not in it for the benefit of us. I would guess, that they make between 10-20% of that dollar, but that is ok, because it makes us feel warm and cozy like a nice winter coat in the fall. An then there is the malpractice insurance that is driven by the fact that awhile back everyone went to law school and found out that they cant be a judge or a criminal attorney, or they weren’t smart enough to be a patent attorney, so they go in to civil cases, and drive the cost up for everyone. Why do we pay medical bills that for the same broken bone costs more now than it did 5 years ago, in every other high tech industry tech drives cost down, not up? But the medical industry isn’t much like a pc. If you don’t want to buy a pc, you wait another year, for those that buy a pc 1 year, that is a 50% reduction in sales, for those that buy every two years that is a 33% reduction in sales, for those that buy every 3 years that is a 25% reduction and so on; this drives competition and value in a product, or else you wont buy. The medical industry works on insanity, if you are in pain, we will only help you if you agree to pay what every we want, there is not a motive to reduce costs, there is not the ability of the consumer to refuse care, else they cant work, or even worse live. Something needs to be done to drive the cost of lawsuits down and the competition up in the market. Requiring people to pay for minor medical treatments, like the flu, and a cold prevents people from going to the doc when they don’t need to. Requiring people to pay for services that were requested and not needed reduces excess requests. Finding ways to automate the diagnosis process, will reduce costs, and imagine if anyone could take an x-ray and diagnosis it. Imagine if you could go to “Med Depot” and buy a cast kit for your friend for 1.50$. We wouldn’t need national health care, it would be affordable. So Matt, if you are so determined to help the other guy out, be a capitalist and help people make Medicine and Health CHEAP!! And you will be rich and you will have saved lives in the process! And you will all have saved us from socialism!!!! LESS GOVERNMENT RULES!!!! Go libertarians

School Sucks
Ok, You all have good points, but I think I have a different perspective. Justin and Dave, your majors were more fun than the major’s that Matt and I have had to endure. Don’t get me wrong, but I love PC’s, but Discrete sucks, I took it three time, once from a smelly French man that was never told about toothpaste or deodorant soap. Discrete is not LOGIC, is counting theory, and it is one of the hardest parts of computer science, if you are interesting in seeing what I am talking about I will show you, i still have my book. The hard part does not come in the counting of numbers between 1-100,000 but in terms of 1.34^10 or was it 1.34^30 and you cant do that on your fingers, or on a calculator, you need to reason through arithmetic proofs. On the other hand, I have taken more math than even you Matt, as I have had to take all of my engineering related classes, my math classes, my project management classes and my computer science classes, i found very little time to actually graduate, between my game playing, my coops, and my drinking rituals. I was one class and a couple of CD’s away from a Math Major, a 1 class from a CompSci major, A Software engineering Major, and 2 classes from a Anthropology minor, 2 from a philosophy minor; so as I see it, I if I would have taken one more semester I would have had 4 more degrees, but it wouldn’t have gotten me an of job offers that i received. I get all of my opportunities from knowing people! That is the GAME, and learn to play it well. I am in the process of creating a new field, Intellectual Property Management, the only way that I am going to earn a living in it, is by doing something different and not talking handouts from employers. You are a smart enough person to invent something that someone needs or wants, and I guarantee that you will be happier earning a living off of it than you will getting a paycheck. Your cousin, Justin is in the process of inventing a Special Effects Economy in Milwaukee, a year ago we would have thought that he was nuts, but he has the contacts to make it happen, now it is up to his determination and his skills to see it through.

At Marquette, we learned about function pointers, but it was more of a here it is, rather than, there are these 12 situation that you will use a function pointer, work experiance showed me that. Also, I knew that it was not new in .Net to do a function pointer, the difference was that there are programmatic controls in regards to how the function pointers are accessed allowing tight security implementation to take place rather than c++, where you can buffer overload into the pointer and change what it points to. Hackers doo this all of the time on C++ code.

Tax Cut
I don’t want to get in to how this helps the economy, because I think that it is a pain in the ass to do taxes correctly, I am all for eliminating loop holes and exemptions and putting a flat tax in place. Three questions, how much did you earn from work? Incomes under $150,000 Taxed at 12% all earn income over $150,000 is taxed as short term capitol gains.
Second question how much did you earn from short term capitol investment this year? Investments that transact a sale and a purchase in less than 365 days .Taxed at 35%

Third question how much did you earn from long term capitol investment? Taxed at 12% + (23/Length of investment in years)%

This simple plan would have the rich paying more, the average person paying enough and it would encourage long term investment, which would cause investment stability and economic stability. It most inporantly encourages a middle class. i would even be up for changing short term taxes to 50%, and capitol investmetn to Taxed at 12% + (38/Length of investment in years)%. Let people make money first, Let people plan for the future next, then let the day traders make up the rest. OO i dont like them at all.

Justin Kruger

PS its spelled ************ Kruger *****************

Posted by: Intrigue

Posted on: Friday February 27 2004 1:55pm

Posted by: Intrigue

Posted on: Friday February 27 2004 10:53am

I have to say that I am frightened by the fear that some might have whispered in ones ear. It is an irrefutable fact that economies change and the major job role of the American population changes with that. Anything that can be done cheaper here will be done cheaper. That is why we are able to over time and decades offer more stability than any other nation in the world. Here it is not a matter of pride, like Japan or Germany or France, or a matter of equality like Canada, Denmark, Switzerland, or a matter of GREED and power like in Russia or other distraught governments; but here it is as simple of a matter of efficiency.

Efficient corporations offer higher profit margins, fewer employees, and higher wages. To accomplish this level in efficiency one must have a higher productivity in labor. Believe it or not, but people are the most expensive part of a business. Next is land, and finally equipment is next.

If you look at major economic revolutions you will notice two cycles, one the cycle of increased efficiency, and two, increased value in variation. Businesses will always increase output to a point where it is really profitable to make one item, over time that item saturates the market and a variation needs to be produced. It is the cycles of efficiency and variation that keep a business alive. Successful businesses find the right balance where as failures often times abuse one or the other. To show some examples, the Model T or the first household car was only available because Henry Ford, didn’t build a better car, but built a car that was cheep enough that his own workers could afford it. It was the mass production of the assembly line that allowed the car to be marketable, and as a result, he forever changed the way that we would travel. After about two-six years, Ford motor company had sold enough cars that it was time to go through a cycle of variation, and as such introduced the first colored paint job on a Ford Model T, and thus giving rise to an alternate market.

To take a step back on my point, imagine if you will that the automobile was a viable option, while being hand produced. In certain economic numbers, the creation of an assembly line would equate to lost jobs, even though Ford was hiring new people to run the factories. The reason is that the analyst would use the production volume and estimate how many job it would have taken to perform such a task and compare that to how many actually do the job. This is a bad use of numbers and is what is happening right now. During our most horrible, unbearable current rescission we have not topped 7% unemployment, I think 6% is the actual number, but I will use 7% for this illustration. In 1930, the unemployment went from 3.2% to 8.7%, 1931, it rose to 15.9%, in 1932 it rose to 23.6%, and in 1933 unemployment only slightly rises to 24.9% a stagaring quater of our population. In 1930 the GNP falls 9.4% from the previous year, 1931, the GNP falls another 8.5%, and in 1932 the GNP falls 13.4%, and then 1933 something changed in the fall, it slowed to 2.1% fall. Here is the kicker in 1934, the GNP raises 7.7% and the unemployment only rebounds to 21.7%. Where did the jobs go? 1935 the GNP grows another 8.1% and unemployment only rebounds to 20.1%, where did the jobs go? The GNP grows 14.1%, and unemployment still only rebounds to 16.9%, where did the jobs go? WW2 happend and our economic recovery was suplumented with the past time of saving the world.
http://mirrors.korpios.org/resurgent/Timeline.htm

The point that I am trying to make is that in an economic recovery, First the GNP changes, then the jobs, but they are not the same jobs, they are different and they are more efficient in the uses of people skills. If you look at today’s economy we have not had a negative GNP, not even during our recession did the GNP go to negative values, we only slowed our growth to less than 2%, compared to the 90’s with growth in the 10 – 25% range, which was even more than the roaring 20’s. To say that we entered a recession when you look at history, it would make you laugh, we had it dam good! Yes unemployment went on the rise from a record low of 2.?% to a 6-7%, but there are reasons for that, we had a major scandal in the Whitehouse(Clinton), our CEO’s stole money from American investors and destroyed peoples pension plans, even NVIDA had a scandal, where share holders took law suit against the company. Investor confidence was injured and our economy still grew. What we are seeing now is an influx of skill, cost and saturation of experience. Not even a recession, if you want to look at it, look at the numbers of the 70’s and 80’s; in which real recessions actually occured.

Ok, now on to where are the jobs going and what jobs are going to come back to the United States. If you look at the past 20 years you will notice something, the 80’s were about lean and mean corporations (high efficiency) coming about , by the time the early 90’s hit, there was a small are coming out of now. During the 90’s companies were so efficient that we made more than we could buy, consumer confidence indexes fell sharply, but we had a problem, we could produce to many things that did not have unique value. Well how do we create value, we create variation, and so we entered a cycle where as an economy we were focused on High Variation, or speculative investment, similar to the investment before the great depression. People invest in a variation, because they believe that it will out sell the competition, and that there will be quick growth for a product in a developed market, ie, they are not creating a new Market, just creating a better mouse trap in a saturated market. This creation of value, is never what its actual productive value is, it is a speculation on what its assumed value is. Durring the 90’s software took on this role in two forms, one the dot coms and two; enterprise software. By the end of the 90’s we had over produced variation so much that we were not able to turn profits on speculation because the cost to maintain custom sites and enterprise software had become too much. As a result investors were not getting the returns they needed and so mutual fund traders started putting money into blue chips, look at stock record, durrint 99 – 01 software fell and blue chips spiked. You can even see this behavior today on a weekly basis. Find some blue chips in varied sectors and you will watch techs dip and in the same day blue chips rise, it is an indicator of shifting monies. IBM was one of the benifactors of this transition, as they are both a tech company and a blue chip, IBM used its influx of capitol investment to reinvent itself from a hardware and OS company to a service based company offering enterprise software solutions. They brand themselves and the people to do it right. More than 60% of IBM's revenues are from services creating enterprise enviroments, compared to the 10% or less that it was 10 years ago.

So where are we now, we are in a High Efficiency economy right now and I would expect it to grow the GNP at close to 5-12% for about 3-8 years. This means that products and jobs that drive Higher Efficiency will outperform those companies that are using high efficiency tools to improve their efficiency. I would expect unions to have a hard time for the next 3-8 years and robotics firms to do well. I would expect that things that are hand made will loose out to high volume production. Wal-Mart should do well in the next couple of years. Creativity will be used to create cheep designs. SO FIND AWAY TO MAKE THINGS CHEEP, and I guarantee that you will have a job. After this period of refocus, we will see another creative boom in variation. An example of this will occur in the automobile industry when people actually start buying hybrids in a mass scale, you will have more power derivatives(engines, motors, fuel cell, hydrogen, etc.) than you will be able to keep track of.

I think that I have made my point, but I know that it might be long and not well worded, but if you have something to comment about it, then I am would like to listen.

Justin K "Intrigue"
--- the investor among us!

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Thursday February 26 2004 10:36pm
Well, I ordered the headphones, so I will not have to rely on the built in speakers on Kruger's LCD panels nor will I have to steal a headset from someone. And thank you Screen Savers, I can now play DVD movies on my computer! Yeah!

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Thursday February 26 2004 9:16pm

new event page is up. Speak ASAP about date or location changes. Schedule is Unreal heavy, but as usual, is just a suggestion. And who knows, maybe UT2K4 will be retail by then. Also note that NearSki 2.0 will be premiering, as well as an entirely "new" Tribes map. The good news is I think I got the Server-Side thing right this time. But I'm quickly finding out just how many objects the engine is willing to render before "undocumented features" start popping up...the other day I was able to simulate the old "Disco Tribes" bug under Win2K, this time under XP. Fortunately, most of the glitches seem to be relegated to the editor.

Posted by: justin	Posted on: Thursday February 26 2004 2:36pm
Unreal Tournament 2004 This time, it's not just the men.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Thursday February 26 2004 1:44pm
After many many hours and hours of tedium upon tedium I have killed all... and for what? For a crappy movie of some ships droping a couple of bombs onto a planet... that's it!? Time now to uninstall this sad excuse for a game and pack it up to return to you, Justin. And with the newly freed hard drive space continue making my AMV.

Posted by: SmokinHotWhisky

Posted on: Wednesday February 25 2004 4:13pm

Greetings Merry Gentlemen,
After a brief respit at the filmcon, I have been rejuvenated by several differant things. One, to the fore, is the '2k4' demo. As mr. bosar said, it's hot, hot, hot! I really enjoy it, much more than 2k3, I might add. Onslaught is grrr-eat. Bombing run is improved. I just really enjoy it. Also, so do the children it seems...as one was playing on my computer for quite some time on Saturday night.

I highly recomend this one, gang.
D.R. aka SmokinHotWhisky

YEEEE HAWWWW!

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Tuesday February 24 2004 8:29pm

In a funny case of the shoe being on the other foot, a recent attempted install of The GIMP has resulted in the cessation of proper function for every single Microsoft Ap on my computer (although Office aps have a nice automated restore ability). The GIMP doesn't work either because apparently it wants to create a folder that has a period at the start of its name, and 98SE doesn't allow that. So I have been forced to finally abandon IE completely, even in NeoPlanet form, in favor of Firefox. Well, Firefox has a cooler icon anyway :)

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Tuesday February 24 2004 8:06pm
Why did DBBQC go? Nothing that happened here, I hope. With UT2K4, if I still had my 64-meg card (God rest its processor), I'd give it a go, but this machine's gaming days died with it. In related news I'm contemplating purchasing a set of Shure E3 headphones. Any of you media guys have experiance with something similar?

Posted by: justin	Posted on: Tuesday February 24 2004 7:34pm
if only we lived in new jersey! ;) www.ubercon.com

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Tuesday February 24 2004 3:31pm

I think a response is unlikely, DBBQC has gone away. I can get you that media for the LAN, though. Speaking of gaming, we tried that UT 2004 action at the FilmCon LAN, it went over quite well. Onslaught is swell. I happen to prefer the XMP style a little more myself, but there's much fun to be had in this new UT Demo. Interestingly enough, it runs more smoothly than UT 2003 on my aging hardware, which means it may be worth downloading even for you, CrowScape. Much of the "UT_98" gameplay is back too, complete with double-rig, old-school sniper rifle, and Assault. In general, things are a little more wide-open, which reduces the Quake Twitch feel and almost invokes Tribes at times. The only real letdown in the demo is the CTF map they threw in, which seems off-scale and unpolished (or "too big, dark and empty"). But Onslaught, Assault, and Bombing Run are hot, hot, hot right out da gate. As usual, I'll leave it to the community to come up with the best CTF maps.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Monday February 23 2004 1:19pm
DBBQ Child: is there a possibility of you coming to the March LAN? If so, I think it would be easier to provide me with the files I seek then on burned media (I also would like a sample of the film footage and, if you happened to record it, the sound of the projector shutting off). Otherwise I'll set up the FTP site.

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Saturday February 21 2004 12:29am

I was purusing my digital cable channels today and, what to my surprise, I am actually allowed to watch Tech TV! Now I, too, can get poorly dubbed anime series with unintended sexual inuendos! Also amoung the new arrivals are G4 and Discovery Wings. Did Comcast just become a good cable company? Does this mean I have a reason to watch digital cable besides HD Law and Order and the annual HD Superbowl? I think it does! Now, if only I can get HD Discovery...

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Friday February 20 2004 3:43pm

now that you're good and pissed, we're getting somewhere. glad for your new found courage, and acknowledgement that all have an equal right to reply.

'round these parts, "discrete 1" would be "logic", which i took. after talking to the "Artificial Intelligence" prof, that's the one that would encompass "discrete 2" and much more. And of course, this ignores non-COSC requirements. But this pissing contest is pointless, because because I never even alleged that our disciplines were equal, you fabricated that one yourself. I went out of my way to acknowledge that I avoided Calculus ("pussied out", in fact). Thus, there are many things you know that I don't know, as vice versa. Never implied otherwise.

In fact, most of your rant originates in imaginary attacks. The only thing I attacked directly is elitism; the assumption that you are somehow working harder than everyone else. I merely proposed that we all work very hard to get here, and all deserve to get paid, including those of us without the UWGB Computer Science Major.

I see that you react very badly when you perceive others to be instructing you on how to live you own life. Well, welcome home. Now perhaps you can begin to understand how some of us feel when Democrats start alleging that none of us can sufficiently take care of ourselves, and that we need the Government to instruct us on matters such as what to do with our paychecks.

My observations on the matter originate not from my "knowledge" of your life, but from my own recent experiences. Specifically, where I was 2 years ago. Broke (actually, beyond broke due to my school debt), unemployed, on the verge of moving back home, and very angry at the world for not providing me a job. I'm only recalling the things you're saying which I remember saying myself. So no, I'm not making assumptions about you, beyond what you post here, which is fair game (that's the point of recorded discussion). So, based on the data you have provided, and my own experience, I think it is reasonable to assume that one probable course for your mindset will mimmick my own. Hence, the "you'll see" demystified. I didn't actually state that you should do anything. I only recounted what *I did*.

In all things, remember the power of perception. Also, it takes guts to speak, yes. But it takes far more guts to listen, especially to the choir of experience.

now, to Film Con! my next post will probably be sunday night. With luck, things will have cooled and we can get back to the issues.

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Friday February 20 2004 12:32pm

Man, and I thought that one post I made was harsh. Anyway, Webster still tells you not to use the "word," and I did include a smilie in there.

What jobs has the American worker been freed up to do? Beats me. I can only recognize trends and patterns. Schmunk's ROTC officer could tell in 2000 by trends and patterns that the US would soon be in a large-scale war, but unfortunately he couldn't give the where or how.

Here's the thing, nationalized health care is not just a personal choice. It requires everyone in the nation to participate whether they want to or not. So when you start talking about wanting to impliment it, you better damn well expect and accept the views of others instead of throwing out four letter words in frustration. If you really just want to "try" it, move to Canada for a few years. It's not like you're asking to go into uncharted territory here, so you don't really need to be omniscient to have an idea of whether or not it's a better system than what we have now.

"Still can keeper of all knowledge Justin Wade Bosar please tell me how anyone can grow up to be Democrat? Could they think maybe they have something to gain from it?"

Appeal to belief:

The logical fallacy of appeal to belief is very similar to the appeal to tradition fallacy. It is the assumption that because most people believe in something it must be true.

Examples:

1. Most people believe in some sort of God, so it must be true.
2. One hundred years ago people didn't believe that smoking was bad for you, so at that time it must have been safe.

Note that under some circumstances, such as social conventions, results of democratic processes etc. this may not be a fallacy. For example:

1. Most people in France believe that it is acceptable for women to go topless at the beach. Therefore it is acceptable in France.
2.Though most people wanted the "small party" to win in election, they did not think it could beat the major parties. This meant that the "small party" did not win.

-Wikipedia

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Friday February 20 2004 11:46am
Guess so.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Friday February 20 2004 11:45am

Regarding irregardless:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irregardless+&x=16&y=16

HA! The mighty Crow has been foiled once more as he as yet has to answer the quetion of what jobs the American worker has been freed up to do! Not that he'll admit that he doesn't know. Although, I could be wrong.

I KNEW you'd throw "Marqutte's minor was just as bad as UWGB's major" in my face. Let's look again. You had to do:
COSC 051. Structured Programming
COSC 054. Principles of Computer Science
COSC 055. Data Structures
COSC 148. Hardware Systems
COSC 149. Operating Systems
COSC 152. Programming Languages
--Thanks Marquette.edu

Gee, where's the Discrete Justin? I got more in-depth in C++ than you with Intro to C++ and Software Engineering. I learned things like you can pass functions as pointers even before .NET, something your roommate didn't learn apparently cause he told me it was a new .NET thing. If all you want to do in the world is write billing applications, then your minor is fine. You don't need the extra theory. I would like to do a good deal more than that and the amount of theory I have been exposed to is the key I need to do it. Furthermore, despite this being a state school, I had to work my ass off to understand those concepts I was being presented rather than just sliding by as I could have.

And you deserved the attack there my boy, in my eyes. For too long I have operated under the assumption that you know more than me and I can be wrong. Somehow I convinced myself that my ability to be fallible was far greater than yours and Crow and Whiskey and Kreuger et al. Not to mention my unwillingness to start a fuss. Well guess what, that's changing: you are not only wrong but rude to make an assumption that your minor has given you the same skill as my major. All we did that night was come to a conclusion you liked and stopped there and I lacked the guts to stand up for myself and do extra research and thought. I will put my skills developing software against yours anytime and one of the few things I am sure of is I would roundly kick your code's ass. Just as I imagine you and Whiskey would do vs. any media I made.

Ya'll seem to KNOW that "Oh, that won't work because of this, this and this." You all seem to KNOW so very much. Especially you Justin when it regards me. Your posts often read like you have this great wealth of knowledge and I will some how come round to you. Let's see...

"When you have something to lose, which was fought for over many long years, you tend to eye the Liberal agenda with a more cautious eye. You'll see."

I'll see. You have no clue what I will and will not see. Still can keeper of all knowledge Justin Wade Bosar please tell me how anyone can grow up to be Democrat? Could they think maybe they have something to gain from it? Maybe trying to progress is a good thing? Evolution?

Guys, in MY now OPEN EYES, you are like me. You don't know shit. Now I'm not telling you what to think or what to do. I'm just telling you that when I look at your posts and even if Kreuger or Schmunk were to post here I see people who are the just as inept as me in everything we've been talking about. I still respect you all. Still like you. I imagine that you will just chalk my remarks up to some emotional out burst triggered by school, or the economy, or the emotion of fear. Or do something to pass off the blame of my perceptions of you, from yourself. Well, no, this is me and my new found confidence just calling em' how I see em' and you and what you say and do are wholly responsible for that. No brainwashing. See, I’m independent, as evident my by endorsement of John McCain one of your boys.

So, in conclusion, I'm wrong for wanting to try national healthcare. You're all wrong for knowing why it and other changes won't work. Unless you have the sight of Q or God, in which case why aren’t you using your skills? Although the grossest grievance here builds on an apparent belief that not only do people seem to know things, but that they can try to dictate how I should run my life. Naturally, you are free to do what you want. I can't stop you. I guess by my reasoning I can't even tell you to stop telling me what to do. Fun little conundrum eh? But I can tell you to Fuck off in the future when you do that, and like me, you just don’t have to listen. And I get the satisfaction of defending myself and my life.

My new point of view: Just because someone has told me something does not make them right and I have a right to my opinion, as well as to revise it as needed.

Now, do have the guts to send all this?

Posted by: Big_Whisky

Posted on: Friday February 20 2004 10:21am

Greetings,
Well, I also have a Computer Science Minor, and spent the majority of my time in the computer lab suffering with 'Machine Code' or some other insane CS concept that my professors expected me to attain through osmosis. I took Calculus too. All while working three jobs.

I am not trying to tell anyone how to live their life, I am just saying that there is a way for every person to achieve their goals, (without getting it from me, the taxpayer) and sometimes it can be pretty hard. Things are never going to be easy, I learned that once I got into the job market. It really sucks when you see how much taxes really do eat away at your earnings, (once you have something for the government to take) or when you fight tooth and nail to get a 2k bonus to compensate you for six months of 65-70 hour weeks on salary, then the government takes half. It's enough to make a grown man cry.

I'm glad DBBQC doesn't think 65 or 30k is 'rich', because it isn't. The government thinks it is. Their the ones with the hand out. If W wants to 'bribe' me a little bit with my own hard earned money, I think it's about damn time. In all the money I give to the government, to hear the them say, "you know, we took a little too much this time, here have a little back," makes me feel good. Makes me feel like the system is working.

"My doubts remain regarding will enough jobs be created to make up for what was lost as the roadmap proposed by Big_Whisky I would venture to guess is idealistic."

I'm sorry but I don't understand. This is not a one trick pony, it's a cycle. You give business more money and it grows and creates year round jobs. Business spends money every day, not just one.
Think about Conan, the cabbie can use that fame to be the most popular cab driver in NYC. If he puts "conan's cab" (or something) on his taxi, everyone will want to ride in HIS cab over others. People have to think how they can take their circumstances and use them to their advantage.

And I still don't see what's so hard about working a few hours a week and getting healthcare. People can do it now, and they can in 10 years. Not just DBBQC, but everyone. I don't see whats so frighting about this concept. You can even get free movie rentals to boot! ;) (if you work at blockbuster) Imagine that, free movies and healthcare. What a great country we live in! ;)

_________________

Anyway, how about March 13th? That sounds like a very 'unlucky' day for a lan event. Let's do the dangerous thing. ;) LONG LIVE THE LAN!

Big_Whisky

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Thursday February 19 2004 8:56pm

To address the ad hominem attack, simply recall that I actually hold a minor in Computer Science, and after studying the programs at our respective institutions, we determined that the difference between a Minor and a Major == one CS class + Calculus. So, at most, one semester of absolute hell that I pussied out on, and took Philosophy instead (which simply meant late nights of reading). That wouldn't excuse me from working for the other 7 semesters, and certainly doesn't justify elitism.

"I’m not advocating socialism. I’m advocating getting paid."
Well, I don't think there's much I can add to that. In fact, it succinctly rounds up the biggest reason for NOT voting Democrat in 2004, because that would advocate the government getting paid for our work...and then having a tiny portion of that money redistributed to us in the form of shitty public health care (and free money for those who don't work by choice). Sigh. Those must have been some pretty awesome Democratic rallies you attended, to have brainwashed you so thoroughly. As a student of communication, it's something I would have liked to witness; I could have learned a lot.

You noted the odds your self, which would get even steeper if we brought in Schmunk or Intrigue. Now consider the context of getting paid. Most on the majority side are, in fact, getting paid, and perhaps know a thing or two about the concept. Just a little something for perspective. When you have something to lose, which was fought for over many long years, you tend to eye the Liberal agenda with a more cautious eye. You'll see.

------

The afforementioned "Unreal Day" might be best moved to next Sunday instead of Saturday, so as to coincide with the Oscar gathering that Intrigue was planning anyway. Since the Oscars are 90% fluff and don't require much attention, I think they would be best reduced to ambience for some Hot Gaming Action(TM).

Any date preferences for the March LAN?

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Thursday February 19 2004 7:05pm

"50 or 60k a year rich? I don't think so, even if others do."

The "others" you refer to are the people you want to vote for by Whiskey's post.

"Faugh, irregardless if the companies I'm working for don't have to deal with the hassle of providing health care I see that as a good enough thing that I don't care if I'd have to pay more for it."

First, irregardless is not a word (just because you used it multiple times :) ). Second, many companies offer better health care than the government is talking about offering. So by putting the onus on the government to provide it, you are having a direct negative impact on millions who already have health care.

"In the case of Hydrogen powered vehicles, wouldn't it be in the best interest in our war on terror to try and make the change over instead of just greet the idea with apathy? If W didn't pursue, then W dropped the ball and this is another mark of him doing a poor job."

Yes for the first, but that's the fault of the population that likes big, powerful SUVs, not W. You're reaching for straws here.

"I’m sure there’s more to jobs leaving than the minimum wage being raised. Still, good or bad it’s the government affecting the economy. Point made."

Going back to my first post where I talked about the government's influence on the economy: "If you vote Kerry or Dean (which you can't anymore, as he dropped out), they will take more money away from buisnesses, and the job market will worsen." From my third post: "You have this crazy belief that the government can positively effect the economy. IT CAN NOT!" So the debate is not whether or not government can influence the economy, the debate is whether the government can improve the economy beyond its natural state. So no, your point is not made, as the fact that government can negatively impact the economy was conceeded right off the bat.

"In short, the American worker deserves to work and get paid appropriately."

An excellent arguement for getting rid of the minimum wage. Companies can hire more people and will pay them the appropriate ammount for that job on the world market. I don't see any candidate advocating that possition, though. You also forget that Dave is actually dealing with the customers directly on muliple occasions (don't know about Justin, haven't heard him talk about his job as much). If I recall correctly, he even talked about having a client looking over his shoulder at a linear editing machine (something about a wrong colored shirt... I don't know, ask him). Not too easy to do with some guy in India who can't really speak English (and be understandable).

"My take on the tech stuff, you must finance research somehow. There are technophiles like Kreuger and lord willing myself one day who get a kick out of those new toys. They finance continued development."

I fail to see what you're getting at here, as Bush campaigned to increase the funding of R&D for the military, as has been stated many many times already here.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Thursday February 19 2004 7:04pm
Had to come back cause on the drive home I realized the "butt out of my life" part of my last post should really apply to all ya'll instead of just Justin to be fair, as the same implication has been made by everyone. And I must apologize to justin for singling him out at first. That was not cool.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Thursday February 19 2004 6:30pm

I love how this reads 3 against 1. Whee!

50 or 60k a year rich? I don't think so, even if others do. Faugh, irregardless if the companies I'm working for don't have to deal with the hassle of providing health care I see that as a good enough thing that I don't care if I'd have to pay more for it. Especially so if it ends up helping out someone living in the position I'm in a few years. True I do think of myself a lot, I have to survive after all, but I do like to think about the other guy too.

As for the picnic line and the jobs thing, yeah, even when writing it I knew it would be problematic. Hence the admission that some jobs could be created. Still, I don’t know about skyrocketing influence. Sure it could be a boon. But there are 365/366 days in the year to get through. Just like that writer on Conan who took a cab from NYC to Toronto. Great day for the driver. But what about the remaining 365, given that this is a leap year? Although cab driving in NYC is bound to be better than in GRB. My doubts remain regarding will enough jobs be created to make up for what was lost as the roadmap proposed by Big_Whisky I would venture to guess is idealistic.

In the case of Hydrogen powered vehicles, wouldn't it be in the best interest in our war on terror to try and make the change over instead of just greet the idea with apathy? If W didn't pursue, then W dropped the ball and this is another mark of him doing a poor job.

I’m sure there’s more to jobs leaving than the minimum wage being raised. Still, good or bad it’s the government affecting the economy. Point made.

As for your 30+ hour weeks Justin, hey, that worked for you. Maybe you could balance that. But you also were doing your media thing. Not to slag the job, you know I love it, but I am a computer scientist. I’ve had to deal with math and concepts that has taken me long nights to wrap my mind around. Discrete Mathematics I and II, Calculus, Data Structures. Phun stuff. I do not mean to say you didn’t have equally demanding classes. Shit, I’m a graphic design minor and Studio I and II sucked what little life I had left that the math and comp sci classes left me. I would venture to say you had something the same as my Studio classes. I guess my point is Justin, don’t tell me how or even imply how I should run my life, or what is reasonable or unreasonable, because you have no clue what I have to deal with day to day. Therefore, you are wholly, totally and fully unqualified for that job.

Also, I never meant to directly blame W for the lack of healthcare in the country. Shit, presidents, congress, governors, could all be sharing in that. Hey, maybe that’s an idea: try and get the job done on a state level instead. That idea may have been proven.

I’m not advocating socialism. I’m advocating getting paid. Yeah, I deserve hella skrilla for my time I spent learning to do what I now know how to do. As do you deserve to be paid for what you know how to do. At the same time, it wouldn’t take much for the powers that be to pick up your or Dave’s workstation and ship it off to somewhere they can do the job for less and just as well. India does have a history of doing excellent film work after all. In short, the American worker deserves to work and get paid appropriately.

Yeah, I knew I was going to get zinged for the Daily Show comment. But that’s the price you pay for being honest. Still, irregardless of where I got the news from, if it didn’t happen it didn’t happen.

My take on the tech stuff, you must finance research somehow. There are technophiles like Kreuger and lord willing myself one day who get a kick out of those new toys. They finance continued development.

Ze tax cut was a bribe. Bush was saying that he was going to give it back to us if he got in, and to his credit he did what he said he would. But it was a bribe. It just happened to be spending that can easily be construed that way and I think there were better ways to spend it. My parents together saw only $250, the max. Big friggin’ whoop. In the grand scheme of things that is nothing.

I’ve spent way too much time crafting this response. But that’s what happens when one has to go it alone. I go now.

Posted by: Big_Whisky

Posted on: Thursday February 19 2004 1:05pm

Greetings all,
First off I would like to say "Bravo!" to all parties involved in this conversation. Wonderful arguements one and all!

Ok, the first issue I would like to address is healthcare and the ability to get it when in school / between carreers etc. Mr. DBBQC said:
> "Hi, I want to work for you part time for about 5 hours and get heath care." Sure, you get hired."
I don't know how I can say this in any more concrete terms. THIS IS HOW IT WORKS. People working @ IV are doing this AS WE SPEAK. If you would like I will have them call you and tell you how to accomplish these same goals. My friend works three jobs, one of which is Blockbuster, she works one night and a Friday or Saturday night, and gets healthcare. It happens. It works. I want you to have healthcare, and I will be happy to do whatever I can to help you get it.
What surprizes me the most is how resistant you are to believe the differant ways YOU can get healthcare. You would be more than happy to take some government sponsored program, which you WILL be paying for, rather than getting coverage now and making some money to boot. Don't think that government plan will be "free" or "inexpensive". Perhaps when you're making 25k straight out of college you won't be paying so much, but once you get that nice job, or you get married and you're combined income get's to be about 50 or 60k, guess what...now you're the one the Kerrys and Deans of this world want to take from (because you're 'rich')...and take they will [take take take]. Unless it's the Clintons, then you're weathy at 35 or 40k. No matter what, when the government's involved you will have to pay sooner or later. (believe me, taxes hurt me now, and I ain't making that much...)

Now, if I may, I would like to take a minute to talk about taxes and economic growth. "Reaganomics" and "Trickle Down" were laughed at in the eighties, then when the economy boomed in the nindies people wondered why. If you let big business keep more of it's money, several things will happen. First new jobs could be created. Very likely, but let's say that doesn't happen, let's say they do the following things:
> What about company parties such as picnics? Raises for employees you already have? Irresponsible > spending?
Ok, so if every company desides to have a party with their new tax money, the catering business, booze sales, and the party favors markets skyrocket. Caterers hire new employees, entrapenuers start new catering businesses and new jobs are created. Same in the areas of manufacutre of the booze and whatever else they are buying. Current employee raises will mean those current employees will have more money to spend (which is still taxed twice, on the earning and on the spending) therefore houseing markets, auto sales, and pretty much everything else will do better. Irresponsible spending is really great because the injects pure cash, also taxed, straight into whatever they spend it on. (like more video production for instance ;)
Mind you this money these companies are "getting", really isn't money they are "getting", they are mearly "giving" or "contributing" less to the government. So the government isn't taking a hit, they will get more than they did last year, just 3% more insead of 5%. (or however it breaks down) And with all this new spending, the government could actually take in more from the other sales and income taxes, than they would have brought in before.
Now the rub here is that this doesn't happen over night. The injection of cash into business in the eighties contributed to the good economy of the nindies. Now we are in the "Clinton Admin" economy, not that it's completly due to him, but to the government's action during that time. We are starting to feel Bush's effects now, but we won'r really feel it fully for another few years. It's a process.

Finally, about keeping up on the tech bubble. Who here buys a new computer every time a new development comes out? (besides Kruger ;) I like to stay two or three iterations behind, then jump ahead. First, I save money; second, I see the improvement more; and third, I usually don't need those intermediate iterations. The missles we have blow up pretty good now, we will develop new generations, but will only replace them every other generation. Less systems to learn, less to go wrong, less new manufacture cost (you still have to build the current systems in use), but more R&D. It sounds reasonable to me.

Well, thanks for reading all who read. I am really enjoying this debate and hope it continues!
--Big_Whisky

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 11:02pm

One more thing: Whenever anyone has asked any of the talking heads from The Daily Show what they think about the large number of people who say they get their news from them, the response is always along the lines of "scary." The Daily Show, believe it or not, does not present an accurate report of the story, which is why the refer to themselves as a "Fake News Show."

Presidents can only, with regards to getting laws and funding, push for an agenda. Getting it passed is solely the job of Congress. You can always tell which agenda a President is truely serious about by how much play it is given. If a President just thinks something would be a good idea, it may be mentioned once or twice. If it's something the President believes must be done, he will use the bully pulpit to rally popular support around the cause so that Congress reacts. But if there is no demonstrable support for a President's policy already existing, the President runs the risk of looking foolish if he continues to harp on the issue. So often times the first time a policy is presented it's there to test the waters. Bush's hydrogen initiative, like it or not, was recieved by apathy by the majority of the populace and cynicism by much of the remainder. So Bush probably came to the conclusion that it was not worth the political risk to try to champion fuel cells. It wouldn't be the first time an idea was floated during the State of the Union and nothing came from it.

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 10:16pm

To begin with, I would like to appologize for much of the harshness in my post. I was being rushed at the time and so it didn't get a proper smoothing over.

Justin has just said a lot of what I was going to about Europe, and I want to say that if you want Wisconsin to become a socialist paradise, or even Illinois (to show I'm not nit-picking) I'm fine with that because some other state can always choose to become the capitalist paradise. But once you go and nationalize socialism, every state is screwed equally and it becomes damn hard to fix it as everyone's voice is 50 times smaller. It only makes sense that the furthur removed the government is from you, the less power it should hold over you. The Republicans, at least in theory, understand this (in practice, to get elected, they have to betray these principles).

Let me make this clear. A tax cut is not spending. A tax cut is not a bribe. It is not the government's money, it is our money. National health care, the way Kerry and Dean describe it, is certainly a bribe. "Vote for us and we will give you this expensive system and make sure that 'they,' not you, have to pay for it, because we'll hike 'their' taxes, not yours."

What Allen Greenspan has control over is simply the printing and distribution of money to the Federal Banks. Government has control over inflation, and all that government can do there is make sure that supply exactly meets demand, much like the fuel injector in a car reacting to the gas peddal. It cannot positively influence the economy by doing this, only reduce government's negative impact.

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 10:00pm

3) Alan Greenspan serves an important function, but even he can't stop the forces of time. Remember, the same man has been chairing the Fed since the roaring 90's, all the way through the depth of our recession (which conveniently coincided with my graduation). So, either he, as the most powerful government influence on the world's most powerful economy, was powerless to stop the bursting of the bubble, or he had complete control and drove us into the wall just for shits and giggles. You are correct about minimum wage though, that is important for keeping jobs from leaving the country, and the government can influence it. However, you have the correlation completely wrong. The faster the minimum wage rises, the faster the jobs go to China and Mexico. for proof, see exhibit A: the Clinton Administration. during my tenure at Fazoli's I saw the starting wage nearly double, yet all the "good" mill jobs in Green Bay started to disappear at exactly the same time. And as we both know, there has been a shortage of high-tech jobs flooding into Wisconsin to replace those mill jobs. My old man has to go to Canada to find work these days. Madison's private sector has completely collapsed under the Government / School Government "economy". There seems to be hope in Milwaukee, I am proof of that. We're holding the line against the great cheese-wheel of ignorance, you could say, but it is going be really hard, especially as our Interchange crumbles and with the loss of Norquist (the ever-elusive "Democrat Who Understands Things", Feingold being the only other instance on record). But the state as a whole is in trouble, and it ain't W's fault. We've elected far too many Democrats over the years (shee-it, we voted Gore in 2000, and that dun bode well for our smarts), and we hold on tightly to shitty jobs because we fear change.

Nevertheless, I got out alive by doing what you claim is unreasonable. I worked 30+ hour weeks almost non-stop for the last 8 years (if you count MUTV that is, which I think is fair because that job has been instumental to every job i've gotten since). i still got out of school in 4, whilst still under Daddy's insurance. ass to the grindstone, pretty poor, but it can work out. and when it doesn't, it sure ain't the President's fault. all it comes down to.

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 8:48pm

...while i wait for the God Damn Mac to rebuild what remains of our media drive...

1) if you listen closely when you hear the word "recession" being spoken nowadays, I find that it is almost always proceeded by the word "world". more evidence that any economic troubles that linger are beyond the scope of any one President, not to mention any one country. it's a global economy. despite the campaign claims of many a Democrat, you can't hide from it, and your vote can't stop it. Look beyond the rhetoric about "persuading" companies to stop sending jobs overseas, and think about how you might actually do something about it. There are options, but they are ugly. Why would Corporation A hire American Laborer for $10 an hour for 35hour weeks, when they can hire Chinese Laborer for $1 an hour and get 60hour work weeks. As long as the Unions run things, we just aren't competitive in the old market. Now, the new market, which focuses on information instead of manual labor, we can be very competitive in because other markets (except for Japan) just don't have the technology to displace us. It will happen, probably in India next, but we have time to prepare. So, you have two choices. Bust your ass to a "White Collar" job By Any Means Necessary (there are plenty of cheap 2-year tech schools to get your foot in the door, and age is no excuse). Or, accept "Blue Collar" conditions of the pre-Union days (or move to China). the lucrative blue collar jobs of the past are going away, and any would-be president who tells you s/he can stop it is a lying jackass. In any case, if trends continue we are coming out of it, as Crow noted. Strangely enough, even Japan is showing signs of econmic resuscitation, which is a good future indicator for us.

2) Academians have a very skewed perspective on life, because they fail to realize that only a very small percentage of the population can live in Academia. They live inside the smallest, most idealistic box there is. European scholars are especially suspect, because much of Europe is living in denial of this axiom. You need look no further than the European economy. Over the last few decades they have gone and elected a bunch of Deans and Kerrys and Gores, created huge governments, welfare systems, and Academia, and now their ecomomies are completely impotent. Sure, in Germany you can go to school until age 28 for free. And if you manage to get a job as a public Professor, you are sitting pretty. But the other 90% of the population out in the real-world private sector are completely screwed. And of course, the final retort is always clear against these types: If the U.S. is so terrible...why are all these whining professors here (and i mean everywhere, I hear it on WMSE and in the Shepard all the time), making their awful, miserable tenure salaries? why don't they go become entrepreneurs in Europe or China, where the Socialists won and it is clearly Utopia? Idealistic Liberals rarely accomplish anything because they rarely take action. It is much easier to merely complain from the warm safety of Academia. And that's probably the last big thing left about Bush II that I can't diss...at least he is a man of action. maybe that makes him a "cowboy" and not fit for the Presidency, but at least we are learning things while he rides around guns blazing. Rather unlike the Clinton administration, where the whole country managed to emerge 8 Years Dumber, caring more about the value of our bloated 401k plans than the fact that the leader of the nation lied repeatly under oath over something as puny as a sex allegation, and whole races of people were being slaughtered across the sea. But hey, "at least i'm gettin' rich".

Well, fuck that shit man. I'd rather fork over a little more of my pittance to an Administration that can't pronouce "nuclear" than one that talks slick but is as morally bankrupt as the Democratic Party.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 7:52pm
Although, it is a subtle form of cryptography. But why would I want to use that here?

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 7:51pm
Maybe I should run my posts through word before submitting. Spellcheck would be good I think.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 7:50pm

Yeah, the part time full time thing full time student, part time work. TIMMY! On that one. Still, "Hi, I want to work for you part time for about 5 hours and get heath care." Sure, you get hired. Then you get more hours thrust upon you because choda boy coworker decides not to come in or some dufus screws up scheduling and they tell you "Oh it'll be fixed next week."
And of course it's not. This is, once more, the text of experiance you're reading.

If Government can't do anything with the economey then Alan Greenspan has the best job in the world. He's still doing that right? Naw, I don't buy that the government can't do anything. Trade agreements. Taxes. Overtime regulations. Minimum wage. Come on guy.

So, again but perhaps this time more clearly, with overtime in danger and with these now semi-illegal alien workers coming into the country with more ease than before, thanks to W and his people, what is the american worker to do Crow? If that cheap labor comes for the american worker's job, what job have they been freed up to do? Espically those who are up in age or just spent years studing for a line of work that suddenly isn't done here anymore? Though mostly the former, as youth has a ceritan degree of obvious flexability. As does a degree.

Huh, I just said something that made me feel a little better. Still bummed about pop though.

If the president can't do anything about the alternative fuels, why did he even bother to bring it up? That just gives fuel to the fire of people like myself and the Daily Show, where I found out nothing happened. Why didn't he go after the issue himself? He cared about it at one time. Why not announce he doesn't care anymore?

If I think I'm going to have a surplus in money, I don't spend it frivelously. I wait till it comes in. Even then, I have a hard time parting with it cause rainy days like the ones I'm in now finanically could hit. Thank LOGIC and REASON I saved all I did, else I'd be worse off than I am now. Now, does the government make mistakes spending money? Yeah, they gave us a bunch of money back it couldn't afford to.

Of the economists who say that the recession is over, how many are Republican or pushing some other personal agenda? Still, Jobless recovery, whatever it's now called still stinks. It stinks of the same vein as No Child Left Behind or what is it? Clear Forrest Act? Great names, poopie execution.

Yeah, it was a moment of apathy. I still beleive. I have faith that if the right people are in charge, they may even be an asshole, things can improve. I still beleive W and those around him are not the ones for the job. I don't know that any Democrat is as they are a party that is also old and intrenched in a iffy system. But, the American voter doesn't seem to have any other viable options at the moment.

One last thing, and if we differ on this I think I may start to cry: I don't think Bush knew there were no weapons in Iraq. I think, as many others did myself included, he beleived in the intelligence he was given. Cause, why would he lie? I know the Saddam tried to kill his dad thing. Still, I have trouble buying that would be it.

Overall this is bad. I think this discussion is just solidifying us more in our positions. We're not communicating. Also, any progrss on that FTP site?

ping

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 6:04pm
Woops. Typo on the fulltime part time thing. In a moment of apathy I suggest, perhaps to the causual observer by the discussion we are having here illustrates, no matter what asshole is in charge, we are all fucked. Unless, you have money and don't have to work. I read more of your reply later. I gotta take quiz now.

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 4:32pm

Pong!

In what paralel universe does five hours a week = full time job? Hell, you can work that ammount on Saturday no problem (Depending on the union, full timers may take Sunday for time and a half).

And whoopdee do, you sat with four professors with other countries who denounced Bush. Guess what? You find four professors from THIS country and they will do the same thing. You need only look at Duke University to see the crap coming out of there ("conservatives are idiotic, shallow hypocrites, so don't hire them"). Where were they getting their news from, the BBC?

"After all, what happened to that alternate engery subsidity Bush talked about over a year ago at his state of the union to fund things changeing over to hydrogen fuel? Oh yeah, that's right, absolutely nothing."

Spoken like someone who doesn't know the job of the President. Take that up with Congress, the Legislative branch, which is in charge of the purse strings.

"What, in Crow's sometimes seemingly infinate wisdom, should he do if he were to get a pink slip in the Bush economey?"

It's not the "Bush economy" it is the economy that is happening while Bush is in office. You have this crazy belief that the government can positively effect the economy. IT CAN NOT! If elected, Kerry or Nader are not going to prevent your father from being laid off and are not going to help you or anyone else find a job unless you're a big contributor looking for a cushy possition in the administration.

"First, he bribes the American people to get in office with the surplus the ultimately dot bomb economy gave us. Oops. Maybe the governemnt should have held onto that money for the dark days that followed."

Show me a single dollar of that surplus that the government actually had in its possession. You can't because there are none. There was no surplus, only a projection, one which was being revised on almost a weekly basis at the time. And why should the government not given us back OUR money? What, you think the same institution that pays $500 for a toilet seat is better at handling OUR money than we are? You think the same institution that frequently just loses billions upon billions of dollars, no idea where any of it went, is a good investment for our economy? What are you smoking and where can I get some? I suppose we could have gone with Gore's lockbox idea. Let's take billions of dollars out of circulation indefinately! Yeah, that'll SURELY help the economy.

"Obviously, giving the money back did nothing to help the economey as the word recession has been spoken quite frequently these past few years."

There are MANY economists who would gladly refute that claim. The recession, BTW, officially ended more than a year ago. It's now "jobless recovery" which is now becoming "job creating recovery". Your talking points need to be updated.

"And what about cheap tricks like leaving out the Iraq budget from the US budget for 2004?"

It's not a cheap trick as military needs change on a daily basis and thus are not part of a budget that itemizes each and every little thing for the next year. Besides, whatever military spending that is going to be tacked on is not going to change the fact that the budget is still growing by less now than it was in the 90's.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 3:54pm

What other part of my experiance do I have that could be applicable to this but MOOII? RPG's? There getting the next expensive weapon to the one you have makes life easier most often times too. I say most often as there are wierd exceptions like Phantasy Star 4's Alis sword. Still, I'm not for falling behind in tech.

The full time job and part time student doesn't work out often. My experiance at APAC, and other people I'm working with now in the ARC on campus report how their bosses fail time and time again to accomidate the school schedule, something that leads to return to unemployment. That is, provided you even get a job. Not to mention one that will even offer you decent hours in the first place. Save for my corporate jobs, the only jobs I've been able to land have been on the night shift. That + an 400 level class at 8am does not a good mix make.

Maybe in May, I'll be able to juggle just looking for careear with a job. For now, I've got my studies because, since I didn't go to a school where I could get connections, all I have is the ability to truthfully proclaim that I'm mighty good at what I do professionally.

Diplomatically, maybe we only lost France. I, however, had the *pleasure* of sitting at a table with about 4 or so different professors from several other countries, none of them France, one of them British. The passion those people had for denouncing Bush's move into Iraq was out right scary and uncomfortable. So, while Amerians may be welcome in those foreign lands, I think I'd might pack a Canadian flag if I were going abroad just cause I don't need that hastle again. Espically since I wouldn't be on American soil.

I'm glad Dean dropped out. That was the right thing to do. My vote for him was a vote for the nominee to put him in his cabinet. And hey, Dean got my ass to care about the primary process and I live in a state where my voice matters in such things. That's something I'll likely carry for the rest of my life. And, it is good.

Still, I don't beleive that jobs are coming under Bush. I don't see how you can say the government taking less money from businesses will translate into jobs. Same thing for the Dems singing that song alone. What about company parties such as picnics? Raises for employees you already have? Irresponsible spending? True, some jobs could be created. I do not beleive for an instant though that it will be enough to recover what has alraedy been lost. What needs to happen is to get companies to want to put Americans to work and take away the insentives for putting people to work elsewhere. Yeah, outsouricing jobs leaves americans free to do other things. Pray tell what might those things be? Cater to our rich overlords needs? Cut their lawns? Ask them for a favor and end up in their pocket?

Okay, I'm being dramatic. Still... the pray tell question remains a good one, espically in a country that seems so apathetic toward innovation at the moment. After all, what happened to that alternate engery subsidity Bush talked about over a year ago at his state of the union to fund things changeing over to hydrogen fuel? Oh yeah, that's right, absolutely nothing.

Oh, what about the labours like my father? He is an intelligent man. But he isn't exactly a spring chicken. What, in Crow's sometimes seemingly infinate wisdom, should he do if he were to get a pink slip in the Bush economey? Seems like every month for a while now the axe has been falling around him. Fortunately, up to now, he's been spared. If he were to lose his job, there goes health care for my folks. My ma's job isn't enough to support the family and pay the debt they have. From my understanding, losing his job now would really mess up his 401k too. Very quickly, things could get very bad for them.

Right now is a terriable time to be either on your way in or on your way out of the job market. I have 0 faith in the Bush administration to be able to change that. I do beleive that someone like Kerry or even more likely Edwards understand what is going wrong here and be willing to try and do something about it. By the votes of Wisconsin last night I think it's safe to presume I'm not alone here.

As for the budget, that is the biggest joke of the Bush administration. First, he bribes the American people to get in office with the surplus the ultimately dot bomb economy gave us. Oops. Maybe the governemnt should have held onto that money for the dark days that followed. Obviously, giving the money back did nothing to help the economey as the word recession has been spoken quite frequently these past few years. And what about cheap tricks like leaving out the Iraq budget from the US budget for 2004?

Shoot, even the one thing that Bush did that I liked, NASA, turns out that it would have to be done anyway cause some governing body wants stricter reporting on the shuttle (or something like that, my mind is foggy on the details) by 2010. No wonder it's to be retired then.

I could go on but I have a quiz in a little while and I need to skim some chapters.

Ping!

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 1:42pm

"As for the skip weapon gen thing, I based my opnion off my MOOII experiance and how it's a bad idea to be behind in tech. Plus, people gotta research and build that stuff so that's jobs. Plus, how does one get to the next generation when there wasn't one before it?"

"We will modernize some existing weapons and equipment, necessary for current tasks. But our relative peace allows us to do this selectively. The real goal is to move beyond marginal improvements to replace existing programs with new technologies and strategies. To use this window of opportunity to skip a generation of technology. This will require spending more and spending more wisely." (Speech at Citidel September 23, 1999)

In MOO-2 terms (I can't believe you're using MOO as a basis for an arguement), this is "Instead of refiting our ships with smaller plasma cannons, we're going use the completely new technology of Disrupters." In real life terms, this is instead of a new 50-cal mounted on a Hum-Vee, we're going to work on high-powered laser systems mounted on Hum-Vees. Instead of using un-armed UAVs, we're going to accelerate development of UCAVs (Un-manned Combat Air Vehicles).

And you're right, people have to research and build that stuff, but there's more researching and building going on with Bush's plan. There's no being "behind in tech" here. Instead it's throwing more resources over to R&D.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 1:28pm
Pong

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 1:27pm

"And as someone looking to enter the job market that means a lot."
Bush has reduced the ammount of money government is taking away from buisnesses, allowing them to hire more workers. The only reason job growth hasn't been as fast is because worker productivity is rising quickly right now. If you vote Kerry or Dean (which you can't anymore, as he dropped out), they will take more money away from buisnesses, and the job market will worsen. Hence, on this topic, you'd be voting for Bush.

"As someone with out health care that means a lot."
Big Whiskey has given you an answer. You could also take a part time job at a deli somewhere and get health insurance (I had it when I worked part time in one). With Bush helping to add more jobs, he is helping this situation. The Democratic solutions, which would add another $200-$300 billion to the growing deficit, will never ever be adopted without screwing up the economy yet again. So here, you're voting for Bush.

"As someone who would like us the US to hve some friends in 4 years that means a lot."
Name one friend we've lost because of Bush. France? What were the biggest contributions France has given to the US in the past fifty years? Vietnam, Bosnia, and selling arms to Saddam so we would have something to blow up when we were there. France hasn't been a friend of the US in a LONG time (hell, the first people the US fought in WWII in Europe were not Germans or Italians but free French soldiers). So, that's the only country we've lost, and we never had France to begin with. Now we've added Pakistan to the "friends" list, which is nice as that is not only a strategic partner in the "war on terror" it also goes a long way to preventing Pakistan and India from nuking each other. States like Lybia and Syria are looking to come off the "enemies" list. We got rid of the Taliban and Saddam, and at the rate it's going Afgahnistan and Iraq will be added to the "friends" list as well. So here, you're voting for Bush.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Wednesday February 18 2004 8:04am

I'm afraid you lost me with the voting Bush line. Please explain.

Edwards was kind of shocking last night. I didn't even really consider the guy cause I heard the bulk of his supporters were women who just thought he looked good. As for the skip weapon gen thing, I based my opnion off my MOOII experiance and how it's a bad idea to be behind in tech. Plus, people gotta research and build that stuff so that's jobs. Plus, how does one get to the next generation when there wasn't one before it?

Class is starting Ping!

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Tuesday February 17 2004 9:31pm
Holy #$%^! Damn that's horrible.

Posted by: justin	Posted on: Tuesday February 17 2004 9:01pm
MAC RAGE! anyone know what happens when a Mac freezes while a 120gb firewire drive is mounted? all the data becomes corrupted! horray! SO FULL OF HATE!

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Tuesday February 17 2004 6:58pm

"And as someone looking to enter the job market that means a lot. As someone with out health care that means a lot. As someone who would like us the US to have some friends in 4 years that means a lot."

So, you'll be voting Bush then! Ah, so nice we cleared this up. For a second I was confused...

And skipping a generation of weapons development is not necessarily a bad thing, especially Bush's version of skipping generations, as the generation you're working on could become obsolete or ill-suited to the battlefield by the time they're deployed (Crusader, anyone?). Remember, Bush also ran on increasing the defense budget, so he wasn't going to cut funding from some projects and not redistribute it to others.

Anyway, just remember that Kerry voted against the most effective weapon systems on the planet today.

And what do you mean I missed the ball? It's got Kerry's blood on it!

Howitzer PONG!

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Tuesday February 17 2004 5:14pm
And while Crow missed the ball, I missed Kerry.... Oops. That'll leave a stain. Uh... GO SHARPTON!?!?! Ping!

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Tuesday February 17 2004 5:08pm

I didn't vote for Kerry anyway. :) I will likley in November though, although Nader may run again. {snicker} Aw, knew I couldn't get though that with a strieght face.

Anywho, Kerry != Bush. And as someone looking to enter the job market that means a lot. As someone with out health care that means a lot. As someone who would like us the US to have some friends in 4 years that means a lot.

Everone makes mistakes. Scheisse (thanks much Crow), even Bush said during his campaign in 1999 that he was going to skip a generation of weapons development. Something I thought was a bad idea, for ze record.

I gotta go. I'm being kicked off the computer I'm on.

Posted by: Whisky_War	Posted on: Tuesday February 17 2004 1:40pm
Greetings, Well, I'll tell you what, Mr. Sharpton is getting my vote today. He seems to be the one saying what all those good ole boyz are thinking, and you gotta respect that. Hey drank any of that GIN lately? It's pretty bad. Alright then, Whisky_War

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Monday February 16 2004 9:15pm

I believe the spelling you were looking for is "scheisse."

Keep in mind, Kerry has a LOT of problems that haven't really been touched on. For instance, he voted against the development of the Patriot missile, Bradley fighting vehicle, and Abrams tank. He believes that terrorisim should be handled as a police matter (the same tactics proven ineffective in the Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and early Bush II administration). He's already been shown a hypocrite (duh, any politician who complains about special interest money is probably going to be a hypocrite). And finally ::picks up Kerry and PONG!:: you wouldn't want a paddel to be President, would you? Think of the children!

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Monday February 16 2004 5:51pm

Right on there Whiskey my boy. :) Good shot too. I've never seen anyone hit a ping pong ball before while it was inflight and flying AWAY from them. :)

Oh shiza! Incoming from Crow! [Dream BBQ Child pauses to wonder if he can put some spin on the ball like they did in that super dogeball game for the NES which rocked the HOUSE!] Don't know unless I try!

WooshingPing!

Ohhh! looking at my flashing ping pong ball of doom. There is no escaping!

Also Kerry was on campus today. I can see now why he's in the lead in the race. Most excellent speaker. He said mainly the same things as Dean did a week ago. Still think I'm going to vote for Dean as a vote of confidence in his knowledge. I think he can still do some good within the democratic party, but I see now why people want him vs. Bush instead. Espically after the Wisconsin debates last night, Dean was looking and sounding pretty frazzled. Still, the difference between the forums was intersting too. Seeing Dean was like seeing Roger Clyne, Kerry was like going to see Areosmith complete with me up in the nosebleed section.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Monday February 16 2004 4:47pm
"The" --Winston Churchill Judo Pong!

Posted by: WhiskyRebellion	Posted on: Monday February 16 2004 3:38pm
"Do not Embrace the Pine Tree!" --How to enjoy your gin. WhiksyRebellion P.S. Ping! (I ran to the other side of the table because I was so excited...)

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Monday February 16 2004 11:48am

Oh!

Since Apple was kind of failed in that they didn't include the UNIX standard fortune program in with their OS X distro I wrote my own. So now, everytime I drop to the terminal I'm greeted with what will be most likley a random quote from Babylon 5, as I got over 1000 from here http://www.cs.tut.fi/~albert/Quotes/B5-quotes.html. Although I have tacked on a few from Ben Folds and, of course, a choice line from How to Enjoy Your Gin. :)

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Monday February 16 2004 8:02am
A matrix ala that cool pingpong.swf file ping! I'm afraid I don't have anything else to say at the moment.

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Sunday February 15 2004 10:11pm

Pong.

MOO-III is a good game if and only if you never get past tech level 30 (there are 50 tech levels). This is not because the techs after 30 destroy the game, it's because the programmers have left so many overrun errors into the game that progress comes to a halt. Apparently when you're bringing in around 300,000 research points, the trouble begins with the turn to completion acting oddly. I'm currently bringing in 4.4 million research points, and the game utterly freaks. Every single tech is stuck at one turn till completion for an insanely long time. Every once in a while a tech will go into the prototyping stage, which is supposed to last for a single turn, except this will also last for an indefinate ammount of time. People have had individual techs frozen for 800 turns.

So, now you can be stuck with micromanaging a half thousand worlds or more every frew turns to keep your RPs low if you ever want your techs to complete. Eventually there's no way to keep RPs low except for modifying the worker allocation for each and every planet one at a time.

But now a new problem emerges. Suddenly, you aren't spending millions upon millions of AUs (dollars) on research, and it's very easy, if you aren't careful, for you treasury to balloon really quickly. Except here is another overflow waiting to happen. Break the billion mark, and suddenly you're bankrupt. Game over man!

But I'm surprised Justin could even play this game when it was released. Amoung the problems of the original game was AI players would not attack the player! Think about that. Something THAT BIG slipped by QA. Also in the list was point defense did not work, diplomacy did not work, armor piercing did not work. Detection STILL does not work. ECM and Cloaking barely work at all, but the effect is negligable, while detection equipment is pointless. Your detection is solely based on the range of your beam weapons.

It's utterly amazing how amaturish this game feels... yet for some reason I'm still playing...

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Sunday February 15 2004 6:55pm

Sweet!

Ping!

I was talking to one of my buddies, buddies and he was just telling me that MOOIII is a good game. He didn't go into detail, however, he nonetheless said he liked the game.

Also, IF the NASCAR Dad's is the new Soccer Mom's AND if many of these Dad's are Republican why do the cars on the NASCAR circuit turn left? Although the turn into Victory Lane is a right.

Ahh the comedy of day to day life.

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Sunday February 15 2004 12:08am

MOO-3 Update. MOO Math lives yet again. I have had the same technologies one turn away from completion for at least twenty turns! Oh how lovely! Even better, I can build Behemoth class ships, but I can't build Behemoth class ships. See, the genuises who designed this game thought it would be a good idea to keep the shipyard technology seperate from the ship design technology. So, while my people apparently know how to build a Behemoth, they remain utterly clueless on how to build a Behemoth. BRILLIANT! Yup, that's one of the techs that's been perpetually one turn away from completion.

And I completely understand how Justin had games that just went on and on. Thanks to the marveleous teleportation technology of Mobilization Centers that you get very quickly in the game, EVERY system, no matter how isolated from it's main empire, offers a battle of epic proportions for every single planet. Who the hell thought doing the exact same thing for three hundred consecutive turns would constitute "fun?"

BUT I WILL BEAT THIS $%&#EN GAME BY EXTERMINATION! CRAPPY PROGRAMING AND IDIOTIC GAME MECHANICS BE DAMNED!

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Saturday February 14 2004 9:41pm
Pong?

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Saturday February 14 2004 5:48pm
Teams: Justin and I since we're blood related and cause I post here more frequently, Crow and N whiskey cause Crow is here often enough to play. Let's Go! Ping!

Posted by: Sippin_Whisky	Posted on: Thursday February 12 2004 1:36pm
So much goodness in such a short amount of time!!! I will check it out, I am very excited. D.R.

Posted by: justin	Posted on: Thursday February 12 2004 12:08am
www.beyondunreal.com it's here.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Wednesday February 11 2004 5:37pm
For a good time: try to understand how the matrix for 3d rotations was derived. It's phun!

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Wednesday February 11 2004 2:46pm
Also like I said, this college is very liberal, which would give me my Dean leanings. Why is it I feel guilty for not thinking like you guys and I have to justify that? Maybe I'm looking for my bias. I had another reason for coming to post here but it's gone and pooftered on me. Oh well, it'll likely come back sometime.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Tuesday February 10 2004 10:44pm
Well, considering Tribes is no longer installed on my computer...

Posted by: justin	Posted on: Tuesday February 10 2004 9:42pm
hey Crowscape and DBBQC...i feel a cravin' for some fresh meat for this Tribes revival...if ya'lls got some map ideas laying around, and i know at least one of you do...churn out a beta or something, and we can all test it this weekend. I feel an urge to dig up my crazy NearSki map and actually implement some of the fixes you suggested way back when...yippee!

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Tuesday February 10 2004 9:35pm

poot. I had a fancy-schmantzy post crafted, and then i accidently performed the "close tab" shortcut. anyway, a few quick gaming announcements in reply to Sr. Whiskey.
- this weekend the Schmunks are in town, and in addition to Pulgari Action(tm) and one large bottle of tequila, there may very well be some Tribes. Since we now have 768k upstream, I'm confident about hosting some WAN gaming if anyone wants to join in.
- the following weekend I plan to attend FilmCon4
www.filmcon.net
- the UT2004 demo is due out before saturday. Also on the horizon is a 1337 Troopers release featuring vehicles, and XMP_CBP. To commemorate I would like to declare Feb 28 "Unreal Day" so that we may gorge upon a plethora of Unreal Tech. These events will be winged and won't be organized on the site, save for here in TEH PHORUM.
- a more proper, complete LAN party will be occuring in March. Details will be announced soon, but please suggests dates if you have a preference.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Tuesday February 10 2004 4:25pm
Hey guys, if you ever start on a MOO-clone, for combat DO NOT base it on a square grid, base it on a polar one.

Posted by: Whisky

Posted on: Tuesday February 10 2004 1:38pm

Greetings Consultants,
Wow. I get busy at work, and a political discussion breaks out on spoolan! Fantastic! Excellent job on both sides of the discussion by the way. One thing though, sorry DBBQChild, just because you don't have healthcare doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to get any. Just work at Blockbuster Video about 5 hours a week and you will be covered. The Secretary here [at IV] does, and that's how she gets her healthcare. It's not a perfect system that we live in, but it can work for you if you make it work for you. That's kinda the key.

Alright, now let's talk about LAN gaming! Where when why and how. Any new games yet? Has the demo for UT2k4 come out yet?

Whisky

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Tuesday February 10 2004 12:44pm

Justin: The WMD thing, I am convinced, was purely for international consumption. The majority of Americans would have agreed to a war against Saddam at the drop of a hat, and that's because for twelve years we had been bombing some part of Iraq and our planes in the no-fly zone were being shot at. Once or twice a year under Clinton he had to come on national TV to say "No, this bombing is not the start of something bigger." We lived with the expectation that tomorrow we could be rolling tanks into downtown Baghdad. Selling the war with the humanitarian situation would have been enough here. With the UN, we needed something else, and unfortunately Bush got too caught up in the "something else" when he sold it at home.

DBBQChild: Take a look at the economic situation of Europe. They've got a nice, socialist system out there. However, if we had the economy today that they have had for the past ten years, Bush would have been impeeched long ago. Why do you think Europe can manage so many of these big protest rallys? Because they don't have jobs! None of the people you see in those marches has to be at work! Believe it or not, I used to be furthur to the left than you on economic issues. However, then I realized something that had been missing from my equations: governments are incompetant. And the bigger they are, the more incompetant they become.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Tuesday February 10 2004 8:03am

We've got Edwards coming on Wendsday, and to him I think I put it best: I guess it really doesn't matter who gets the nomination cause they're all democrats anyway. Although Leiberman dropping out was a great day cause now the MPAA won't be in the White House.

The farness to the left Dean seems to be is very appealing to me, cause I think this country is in dire need of great change. Something that is fuled out of personal self interst as I think it will take some kind of radical shift to the left in the system for me to see the prosperity that your fathers enjoy. I don't care how much it costs to implement nation wide health care. I have no money the government can take from me anyway. Sheeit, I made $1,100 last year (and next year it's looking like I may be coding in the abomination of Java cause when I look for jobs the number of Java + software engineer positions is absoluting apaulling. Ditto on the job security.) I don't even care how much people abuse it, because I will also be one using it. And the system could be refined over time. Still, ANYTHING is better than the NOTHING I have in the health department right now.

Maybe Dean is plyable, still with my upbringing and class status the Democratic agenda is more appealing than the Republican one. Cause under Republicans I look to Russia today and I fear. Maybe that's 25 years of Wisconsin programming, we did vote for Dukakis after all, irregardless that's the way I think. Exasserbated by the fact I don't have anyone covering my ass financially.

Anyway, that's just some food for thought. I don't expect to change either of your guy's minds. Nor should you be expecting to change mine. At least until I have about $100,000,000 to my name. But I don't see that happening soon.

Anyway, I gotta tutor someone for a whopping $6.50 an hour.

I wish I was like the Dude. Smoking pot and being a pacifist. Somehow keeping a house along with money for bowling and a roof. Life would be so much simpler. Instead, the world insists on being my Walter. Not you guys either. I like you, quite a lot actually dispite our differing views. I'm talkin bout other people.

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Tuesday February 10 2004 1:16am

Demolition Man. If you haven't seen it recently, watch it. And learn. Quite possibly the most prophetic movie of the last 20 years. And to think, when it first came out it was so comical. I'm not laughing any more.

The thing that bugs me the most about the Bush II administration, beyond the PATRIOT Act (which was a failure of the entire government, sans the great Feingold), is the bullshit. For example, I feel there were many perfectly just reasons for going to Iraq. The fact that Saddam was trying to do to the Kurds what Hitler did to the Jews should have been reason enough for anyone of morality. But rarely does either side ever talk about that. No, instead we get a line of nonsense about Saddam posing a threat to us, via WMDs or terror or whatever...only then is it "okay" to send in the troops. But even though I feel Bush should have been more honest with us, I also suspect that he said much of what was said simply because it was the only way to get the rest of the politicians on board: the Democrats. Hey, I hate authority as much as the next long-haired guy, but I can't stomach the relentless selfishness of the organized Liberal community, as demonstrated during the last 3 years to a level possibly unprecedented in history. "What?!?! You mean it is going to cost us *money* to save a country from self-annihilation? What about my needs! I'm an American with only 1 car! Down with Bush!"

So, Bush said what needed to be said in order to get the job done, and history will show that it was the right thing to do; it will probably forget all about WMDs. But for now, the bullshit still tastes bad, and that's why Dean is the last person you'd want to replace Bush. Here is a true politian, who will say whatever the Party deems necessary for election. Note how his whole campaign suddenly changed when Saddam was caught and people were reminded of what this motherfucker did. Also remember how Dean was declared the "clear leader" for the primaries months before any votes were cast, because the Party could see how pliable he was, and made him their golden boy (and of course, far be it for CNN to actually fight the tide of propaganda). But what do you know, once the voters actually get a word in, we're not as dumb as the Democratic Party thinks. We see Dean for what he is.

But the Party really screwed things up this time. Most analysts agree with Crow (and Rove); the most surefire way to get Bush re-elected is to nominate Dean. It will alienate all the people like me, the "Disappointed Conservatives" and the moderates who don't love Bush, but there's no way in hell we're going to hand the country to a liberal as far out in Left Field Politics as Dean. He has no convictions beyond an apparent hatred of all things Republican. Bush has some backwards-ass convictions, many of them dating back to irrelevant Catholic rhetoric, but at least he'll stand by them, even when it is politically ugly, which suggests he may have a soul and occasionally thinks for himself.

Furthermore, Dean is the one candidate who might be ignorant enough to pull our troops out of Iraq, and that's the last thing we need, if you care about foreign relations. Regardless of your opinions about whether we should have gone in the first place, we are there now and we have to clean up the mess, or things will be far, far worse. The warlords will come in, Al Qaeda will regain the stronghold they lost in Afghanistan, and the French will start flooding the weapons in again. And innocent Iraqis will start dying faster than ever. How could that possibly be viewed as an improvement? Is Dean insane? Enough with the whining...if you are a mature adult, you should have moved on. The war happened. Deal with it with wisdom and moderation, don't throw tantrums.

I happen to think Leiberman is an idiot, largely because he's repeatedly tried to outlaw my profession, but even a dolt like him realizes that we have to support to mission in Iraq.

What's Dean's other whining platform? The economy. Once again showing his ignorance of history, he not only fails to see that we are only now beginning to feel the small effects the Bush Administration can inflict...and what are the results? The economy is starting to rebound. Sure, it ain't the roaring '90's no more, and if things go well it never will be again. The recession was necessary to purge the false, illegitimate economy of the Clinton era, and even Al Gore, Inventor of the Economy, would have been powerless to stop it. Yet Dean thinks he can do better? I fear for the people that he convinces, if any.

What, exactly, are his qualifications, anyway? I'm sure there's a lot of strife up there in Vermont! Wesley Clark doesn't seem to agree with me about Iraq, but at least that dude's got credentials. I'm perfectly willing to accept the fact that he might understand things that I don't, since I can't hold a candle to his experience. But hearing Dean talk about the issues is just funny.

'nuff ranting for now. as a great man once said, "whee!"

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Monday February 9 2004 11:36pm
http://hosted.tribalwar.com/legends/ Free Tribes 2... sorta...

Posted by: CrowScape

Posted on: Monday February 9 2004 10:07pm

“When he talks about healthcare for everyone (remember I have no health insurence at the moment, nor the finances to go to the ER if something were to happen to me)”-

Except he doesn’t call it a bad idea, and instead endorses it. Let me explain why a national healthcare system is a bad thing: cigarettes. Now, if you know me you know that my sole experience with any form of smoking was at one of Dave’s gatherings, and that’s just because I wanted to do a Bill Clinton impression (and not of the Monica type), so I have no love for the peace pipe. However, look at the excuses (or rather, excuse) States use to ban it; “The costs of treating cancers caused by smoking is a burden on the government” or something similar. Now we have the same kind of argument being brought up to sue McDonalds; obesity costs the government money to treat. National healthcare is the perfect excuse for the government stepping in and telling us how to live our lives because of what it will cost the government if we eat too many cheetos, and recent history is showing that this is not a crazy conspiracy theory.

You can also look to the healthcare system in Canada. It’s “free”, but it’s overwhelmed.

There was only one person running for President that had it right on healthcare: Lieberman. He was not for subsidizing drugs. Instead, he was for opening up the field to competition, to let market forces drive the prices down. There is something strange in the US market where drugs are a hell of a lot more expensive here than anywhere else BEFORE government subsidies are applied. Lieberman’s goal was to make the actual price lower, and it is doable.

Meanwhile if you figure out how to minimize the impact of mal-practice, which Bush has been trying to do (not very effectively, but still trying) your trip to the ER would cost considerably less.

“As it does when he talks about working to rebuild our foreign relations.”

Our foreign relations, in the state they were in, were worthless. I fail to see why we would wish to “rebuild” them. So we no longer have warm-fuzzies coming out of France. Warm-fuzzies didn’t prevent 9/11. The past few years has shown that indeed, it is better to be feared than loved. Saddam is gone, Syria is VOLUNTEERING to have weapon inspectors in, Iran is looking at going the same route, and North Korea isn’t rattling its saber as much. I’ll take that over French approval any day.

Now that the BBC has been exposed as a faux news outlet, maybe they’ll get some honest people to report on US foreign policy and our relations will improve.

Keep in mind Dean also wanted Bush to enter into a trade war with the rest of the world over steel tariffs. So he isn’t even for rebuilding foreign relations, not when he thinks there are votes to be gained.

“when you put W on stage against the other canidates save for Dean, my mind has trouble saying there is a clear cut difference. With Dean no such problem exists. Something I think we need in order to have a real election this time”

Agreed here. I wanted a Bush vs. Dean match up not because I know Dean would be crushed, but because it would offer a clear choice.

”In 8 days, if Dean gets Wisconsin, there will be much rejoycing.”

Yup, Carl Rove has a few thousand dollar bottles in the White House wine cellar for just such an occasion.

“W just needs to be removed from office so he can start to get his spanking by history.”

Bush is going to be treated very favorably by History, mainly because he isn’t intent on repeating the same mistakes. What mistakes he is making are entirely new and exciting. Not to place him on too high a pedestal, but there is a strong parallel between the hatred exhibited towards Bush now and the hatred exhibited towards Lincoln then, and Lincoln is treated royally by History.

“And I know there's this talk about being presidental. Being presidental is what got us in this mess were in today.”

Wait, I thought Bush acted like a cowboy and not like a President? The exact same thing Dean supporters hate in Bush they love in Dean. Why? Because Dean is a cowboy that agrees with them. Evidence that the end justifies the means in politics.

”Oh, and everytime there has been a Republican in power for as long as I have lived, either for me or though my parents I have not been better off.”

Which is why I kinda wanted Gore to win during the last election, because then he would get the blame for the crappy economy, be voted out, and then the Republican would get a break. Keep in mind your economic hardship, whatever it is, was sowed during the 90’s. And no, I’m not going to blame Clinton, or the Republicans in Congress, because the government has very little power over the economy except for its ability to tank it.

”Oh! And jobs. Anyone other than Bush would likely help there though. But as a soon to be a college grad and article after article appearing that my jobs are going elsewhere, this matters a lot to me.”

Jobs are ALWAYS going elsewhere, but they’re always being replaced by something else. Anyone other than Bush wouldn’t do a thing to affect this.

Now, there are many things Bush is doing wrong, such as that guest worker/amnesty program, but Dean solves NONE of Bush’s shortcomings

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Monday February 9 2004 4:14pm
I know another reason now why I like Dean. He and I are a lot a like. Passionate. Intelligent. Hard working. And in the end, dumped on by people you need in order to get something you want. Fuck it. I'm going bowlin.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Monday February 9 2004 2:55pm

I dunno there guys. GB may be takeing the lead over from Madison. Howard Dean stopped in today
and he said that there were more people up here to see him than down there. Still, it was cool and I think it would be rather unfortuante if he did lose Wisconsin and left the race. I'm sure you all here disagree. But then, of everyone in our little circle I have been the one with the most liberal leanings.

However, because it looks like the tide may be easing in the Mac Vs. PC war, I shall alienate myself once more and say I like Dean and think he is what this country needs. When he talks about healthcare for everyone (remember I have no health insurence at the moment, nor the finances to go to the ER if something were to happen to me) and calls out No Child Left Behind for the piece of ass it is, this speaks to me (Kerry has just called it underfunded). As it does when he talks about working to rebuild our foreign relations. I don't doubt that the other democratic canidates speak the same. However, when you put W on stage against the other canidates save for Dean, my mind has trouble saying there is a clear cut difference. With Dean no such problem exists. Something I think we need in order to have a real election this time and to oust W and those cretians around him.

I also like the way he's gone about fundraising.

In 8 days, if Dean gets Wisconsin, there will be much rejoycing. AND I think he can take W. Cause Dean is a human being. Kerry, by his speech post the New Hampsire win, is Frankenstien. W just needs to be removed from office so he can start to get his spanking by history. And I know there's this talk about being presidental. Being presidental is what got us in this mess were in today. America needs new blood.

Oh, and everytime there has been a Republican in power for as long as I have lived, either for me or though my parents I have not been better off. This does not make me a democrat. This just makes me not republican. Although I do like John McCain. But that's because the last time I saw him talk I couldn't beleive they had that little R tacked onto his name cause he was sounding more I.

Oh! And jobs. Anyone other than Bush would likely help there though. But as a soon to be a college grad and article after article appearing that my jobs are going elsewhere, this matters a lot to me.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/

And because one of the other people at the rally said he was running for re-election too in the senate.

http://feingold.senate.gov/

But Feingold is just the man.

And the flaming of me shall begin in the posts that will be above this one. Fwee! I think I'll take myself medium well, and I gotta have my barbecue sauce. Just leave the face alone please. I don't rule out the possibilty of myself getting into politics one day. Which is why some foreign experiance would help me, but that's for another rant.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Sunday February 8 2004 1:52pm
Over 20% of the songs on my iBook include Ben Folds. No wonder he randomly comes up so much.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Sunday February 8 2004 1:44pm
I like the new finder and expose. I didn't think I'd care for the latter but when I've got 5 different windows open on a single monitor that tops out at 1024x768, it's nice. And I found out 10.3 gave me cucumber tab, like alt tab on a windows machine. 10.2 may have done that too but I just did it yesterday and it worked. Secondly, I've surrendered to Canada and WAPL. I'm buying 2 Rush songs.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Friday February 6 2004 10:55pm
Get me in the same room with it, it'll crash. But horray for Wisconsin for being the state chosen to craft Dean's political tombstone. Of course though, there is that Madison crowd, and people can vote multiple times...

Posted by: justin

Posted on: Friday February 6 2004 6:33pm

actually, i was referring to my new workstation which finally arrived. the specs:
Dual 2ghz G5, OSX 10.3.2
4 GB RAM
750 GB LaCie storage array + SuperDrive
21" Sony Trinitron + 19" ViewSonic

The Verdict?
well, first impressions anyway, I have a lot of fire-testing to do yet...but upon first observations, it doesn't suck. Now this is Apple's absolute top of the line, and the whole rig (including ARD and iSight, necessary for conferencing with LA) cost over $5000, so my expectations are quite high, but nonetheless it hasn't repeatly let me down. the details:
Physically? pretty much what i expected. Ugly, heavy, and huge. Apple calls it a "desktop", but make no mistake, this is the equivalent of a full tower server. due to the vertical protrusions the handles create (on both the top AND bottom, for some reason), it doesn't even fit under the desk we bought. so, i'm not just talking about a matter of aesthetics here; the design of this thing is so out of control that it's functionality is being affected. I'm losing significant table space because of it that could impede my workflow, which for $5000, i think is a fair complaint. on the positive side, at least it is quiet. impressively silent, actually, unlike my top-level G4 at MATA, which produces more decibels (and vibration) than the idling of my four-banger Mazda. the bazillion-fan solution seems to allow them to run at a very low RPM which gives the illusion of passive cooling. very nice. also, they have improved their peripheral connectivity slightly, offering handy Firewire ports on the front of the case as well (horray Apple, welcome to 1998!). although it should be noted that not all the ports are FireWire 800. this doesn't really make any sense to me, because it actually requires more hardware internally to have two different standards, doesn't it? I mean, especially considering the price, it seems kind of rediculous to not have all the ports up to date. if you think this complaint is frivolous, keep in mind: we are working with 2k and 4k Cineon files here, weighing in around 22 megs per frame most of the time. at the end of a project, it's all loaded onto a big-ass FireWire drive and then shipped to LA and returned with the next shot loaded, so we need all the bandwidth we can get.

now for performance? or "what's inside" as DBBQC says? this fares a bit better. The memory management and dyamic allocation is excellent in PanTHOR, quite possibly even better than WinXP-32. During our conference call today, I had 4 different Cineon sequences loaded into After Effects 6, amounting to over 5 gigs of media. Yet, i was able to switch and scrub almost seamlessly. this demonstrates the power of the G5's HyperTransport it seems, and cheers are in order for Adobe finally getting their shit together on multitasking. I know there are people here who remember the pain of trying to switch between multiple filmstrips in Photoshop...even when you have superflous physical memory, the software just couldn't handle it. Well, it appears those days may be gone. The industry axiom, "No media tool is real until version 3, version 6 for Adobe" holds up, and AE6 may just r0x0r. but i'm still using Combustion for 4D painting... ;) There's still that little matter of processing a 10-bit color space natively.

The inferface is a little off...the new Finder, which seems to mimick the iLife products, doesn't sit well with me. With the exception of the broken clipboard, I found the 10.2 finder perfectly intuitive, and Apple mucked it up. Safari was dissappointing (uhh...no history drop down??). The new Sherlock is 1337, though, especially the "movies" section, what with the automatic retrieval of trailers and showtimes, all on one page.

all in all, still warming up to it i guess. but i think I will enjoy cranking through Flash and Illustrator on this beast, pretending i'm an "artist" or something. even with the entire Adobe Creative Suite up, haven't seen it crash yet, which is more than I can say for the Dell P4 system across the room...

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Friday February 6 2004 1:12pm
Rock for what? The coming primary? It's just funny that Wisconsin has become so Important suddenly. Next to Clark pulling rank on Kerry I think the funniest thing I heard this season has been "Dean to make last stand in Wisconsin." If your looking to make your stand IN Wisconsin IN the dead of winter, something is very wrong. WISDOM would favor Hawaii. ;)

Posted by: justin	Posted on: Friday February 6 2004 10:27am
/me reaches for the block of sharp cheddar... /me takes out one large steak... are we ready to rock?

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Thursday February 5 2004 2:22pm
I still have the capability to host an ftp site. I'll let you know when I've got it set up and I'll provide you with login/pass.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Thursday February 5 2004 11:53am
Do you still have an FTP site Crow for ze file? In other news I've been geeking out pretty hard core lately. If I'm home at noon I've been watching TNG and on campus I've been drinking a lot of Tea, Earl Grey, Hot. Okay, maybe that's not hard core. Still, it's harder than I have in a long time. Fweee!!!

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Wednesday February 4 2004 8:32am
Shoot, I forgot. Soon.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Tuesday February 3 2004 8:12pm
Hey DBBQC, when will I be able to get that projector sound from Milwaukee Trek?

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Tuesday February 3 2004 7:01pm
A new Doom? I didn't pick you as one to care about that justin. Also, can you wade through the spam in your hotmail account to see if the program I sent you works?

Posted by: justin	Posted on: Monday February 2 2004 11:05pm
Two weeks. Onslaught (or, Destruction Zone 2K4). http://www.beyondunreal.com/daedalus/img.php?potd_image_id=1349 Also, i've beta tested the XMP bonus pack, and it is mighty, mighty fine. A new Tribes...A new Doom...maybe even something (anything) released by Valve. World of Warcraft. Yes, 2004 is shaping up to be a gr34t year for gaming, indeed.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Monday February 2 2004 8:39pm
I should have also mentioned that if you break two billion AUs in your treasury, the game apparently suffers an overflow and next turn your treasury will revert to 0 AUs, resulting in your empire going bankrupt and you losing the game.

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Monday February 2 2004 8:37pm
Industry DEA IN PROGRESS 2147483647 Turns MOO math lives!

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Sunday February 1 2004 6:26pm
The AMV.org banners are getting REALLY bad. I just popped in there for the first time in a while and there was this awful one with "Premiere hates you" in text that was barely readable and this really crappy animation of a dude banging his head on his keyboard.

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Sunday February 1 2004 6:18pm
Is the failure to seed the random number generator in MOOIII a good joke?

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child	Posted on: Sunday February 1 2004 6:16pm
On the bright side, if my iBook logic board goes pbbbhzzt I don't have to pay to get it fixed anymore. :)

Posted by: Dream BBQ Child

Posted on: Sunday February 1 2004 4:44pm

Yeah.

1) Ben Folds was right, it hurts to grow up.
2) Thank God and Justin for the Pulgari Trap Forums. It's so wonderful to have a place where we all can keep in contact with each other.
3) I think my first OpenGL project will be to implement The Big Lebowski Bowling, complete with networking. I'll be staring that one in class though. I do want to do a MOO type game someday though.

In case anyone is wondering, one of my oldest friends is leaving for Denver tomarrow I'm feeling really, really shitty about it. But this is growing up yes?

Posted by: CrowScape	Posted on: Sunday February 1 2004 8:57am
Oh, here's the problem with MOOIII: http://www.comedycode.com/showcode.cfm/code/28.html

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